In 2021, writer Abigail Shrier tweeted a warning: “You’re not entitled your book contract,’ can quickly become ‘United doesn’t have to let you onto its planes’ ‘Marriott doesn’t have to let you stay at its hotels,’ or ‘Visa doesn’t have to let you use its cards.”
Two and a half years later, this type of social-credit-score-based censorship system has come to pass, with Dr. Joseph Mercola tweeting the following: “Last month, JP Morgan Chase Bank canceled all my business bank accounts, along with the personal accounts of our CEO, CFO and their respective spouses and children.”
In a recent Substack post, N.S. Lyons posits that, despite tensions between the two countries, “when it comes to the most fundamental political questions, China and the United States are not diverging but converging to become more alike.” He writes:
The relentless political messaging and ideological narrative has come to suffuse every sphere of life, and dissent is policed. Culture is largely stagnant. Uprooted, corralled, and hounded, the people are atomized, and social trust is very low. Reality itself often feels obscured and uncertain. Demoralized, some gratefully accept any security offered by the state as a blessing. At the same time, many citizens automatically assume everything the regime says is a lie. Officialdom in general is a Kafkaesque tragi-comedy of the absurd, something only to be stoically endured by normal people. Yet year by year the pressure to conform only continues to be ratcheted higher…
Which country does this describe? If you can’t quite tell, well, that’s the point. For many citizens of the West, the systems of governance under which we live increasingly feel uncomfortably similar to what appears offer in the People’s Republic of China.
Lyons’s long and winding piece covers the (unbeknownst to me) mutual admiration between John Dewey and Mao Zedong; the boon to the managerial state that was the 60s counterculture; Herbert Marcuse, his essay Repressive Tolerance, and his employment in the OSS; the Censorship Industrial Complex; and the claim that in China “even some dating apps have trialed incorporating social credit scores.”
It will be the final way to get people to all be the same or self-censor as fewer places take cash. Sports venues are all by phone swipes. If you don't have a bank connected to a phone --for whatever reason --you can't enter.
And who knows what social media are being monitored? If you "like" something inappropriate (to whoever judges these things) you could be a target. Thinking on my social media use I have said very rude things about the New York Yankees...
It might not be altogether out of place to mentioned that its been noticed that the latest version of the Zoom user agreement states plainly that they have the right to use your voice, your image and any text you type to train their AIs on, and to market or sell products derived from this. Jordan Peterson and others have commented on it.
Sigh. Given the previous content on this Substack, I could only assume this Marcola character -- whom I have never heard of because I'm a sheeple who follows mainstream news media and health authorities -- must be an anti-vaxxer. And sure enough:
"The Most Influential Spreader of Coronavirus Misinformation Online"
What I'm seeing here is a big US bank cutting off service to a purveyor of bullshit (who may well have contributed to people's deaths by embolding them in their delusional opposition to vaccination). I rather wonder if JP Morgan Chase Bank shouldn't be faulted for not having done this sooner. And how is any of this supposed to be analagous to Chinese government's surveillance?
My perspective is that the man- who I know nothing about-is being materially punished outside of the rule of Law as a result of a social mob reaction. If material fraud is in evidence, the bank acted correctly, but that isnt in evidence. Have you seen signs of such evidence?
I don't see why material fraud should be the threshold someone should reach. His record of promulgating (possibly lethal) bullshit is adequate justification to me for a bank to decide to drop a customer (unless, of course, there are laws against it).
I'm sorry you don't see why. I suspect I am a lot older than you are. Most of my life what I said would not have been considered controversial. I think we differ fundamentally in both our basic values and our visions of the kind of civilization we want to live within. I'm going to leave it at that.
I feel like I live in an entirely different reality than this blog, but I like to visit in other people’s realities just to see what’s going on there ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Occum’s razor-wise I’m guessing he probably committed some type of fraud, WHICH IS JUST A GUESS AND AN OPINION BASED PURELY ON LOGIC DON’T SUE ME. But I’ll be watching the news for further details.
At no point did I say he must be guilty. I just like to wait until I have like ANY actual information that doesn’t come from the aggrieved person, who obviously has an agenda. And I guess I’m just more skeptical than most, because OF COURSE he said he doesn’t know why. If you were committing fraud, would you just throw up your hands and be like “ya got me!”? Like with every news story, I’m going to wait for more information before shouting that it must be a conspiracy.
The only shouting I've seen in these comments is yours (all caps sentence). Nor have I seen any conspiracy theory accusations. I took it as yet another data point to add to many preceding ones of an evolving social mentality which condones and encourages various forms of punishment without any kind of due process and ultimately loss of freedom for us all. It is a kind of vigilantism which the people who allow don't seem to realize can and will be used against them eventually.
I think another important part of this story is that not only did they cancel the bank accounts his business associates but also of their wives and children. Also I would have thought that even IF someone had been convicted of fraud, their bank accounts wouldn't have been cancelled, but certainly not until the person was actually convicted.
Somebody mentioned Occam’s razor. I’d bet anyone who offends or perturbs the PR or legal departments of a bank’s most powerful customer(s) or who does or says something that threatens their bigger lines of business is subject to being the subject of a letter from such a concern's lawyer to the bank, along with some well-worded sanctimony and veiled threats. Banks, like every institution dealing with big money, err on the side of power. And pharmaceutical companies are pretty thin-skinned; I’d bet they don’t take kindly to even moderately effective public questioning. If I recall correctly, didn’t they try to stop 60 Minutes from reporting the truth about Phen-Fen killing people 20+ years ago (with a little help from the FDA)? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fda-doc-claims-fen-phen-cover-up/
So what’s to stop them from crushing some gadfly blogger?
And just to be clear, banks can’t just keep your money indefinitely because you publish something they don’t like.
But let’s suppose this guy who says he was “debanked” was actually subject to this treatment because of his opinions. Well, this IS the USA and “goofy opinion holder” is not a protected class under civil rights law…but they can’t just keep his money. He’ll find a bank that will work with him eventually. Personally, I am against coercion of any kind and if a bank told me they didn’t want my business because I say X or think Y, I’d appreciate the clarity and would share the news. The key difference between us and China is that when China zeroes out your bank account and social credit, you have no alternatives and essentially no (real) rights.
I could see how this could snowball-- would any alternative health claims become subject to some kind of punishment? There's a new bill in Canada increasing enforcement over alternative health products--https://dicentra.com/blog/health-canada/bill-c-47-enacted-in-canada-granting-health-canada-increased-regulatory-enforcement-authority-over-natural-health-products. From my understanding there hasn't been a lot of enforcement in that area, so maybe it's needed, but I have also heard the high fines could break alternative health companies.
Also I would imagine that all the big banks would get in line as far as debanking a person (especially if the government is behind it), but perhaps a credit union could be found? I don't know.
It will be the final way to get people to all be the same or self-censor as fewer places take cash. Sports venues are all by phone swipes. If you don't have a bank connected to a phone --for whatever reason --you can't enter.
And who knows what social media are being monitored? If you "like" something inappropriate (to whoever judges these things) you could be a target. Thinking on my social media use I have said very rude things about the New York Yankees...
It might not be altogether out of place to mentioned that its been noticed that the latest version of the Zoom user agreement states plainly that they have the right to use your voice, your image and any text you type to train their AIs on, and to market or sell products derived from this. Jordan Peterson and others have commented on it.
Wow, interesting!
If I have to go to anything on Zoom I just listen on the phone now.
Sigh. Given the previous content on this Substack, I could only assume this Marcola character -- whom I have never heard of because I'm a sheeple who follows mainstream news media and health authorities -- must be an anti-vaxxer. And sure enough:
"The Most Influential Spreader of Coronavirus Misinformation Online"
https://archive.ph/Y2vos#selection-321.0-321.66
Should it matter whether he's an "anti-vaxxer" or not? Do you really want to live in a society where anyone with any opinion be treated like that?
Can you help me understand your perspective?
What I'm seeing here is a big US bank cutting off service to a purveyor of bullshit (who may well have contributed to people's deaths by embolding them in their delusional opposition to vaccination). I rather wonder if JP Morgan Chase Bank shouldn't be faulted for not having done this sooner. And how is any of this supposed to be analagous to Chinese government's surveillance?
My perspective is that the man- who I know nothing about-is being materially punished outside of the rule of Law as a result of a social mob reaction. If material fraud is in evidence, the bank acted correctly, but that isnt in evidence. Have you seen signs of such evidence?
I don't see why material fraud should be the threshold someone should reach. His record of promulgating (possibly lethal) bullshit is adequate justification to me for a bank to decide to drop a customer (unless, of course, there are laws against it).
I'm sorry you don't see why. I suspect I am a lot older than you are. Most of my life what I said would not have been considered controversial. I think we differ fundamentally in both our basic values and our visions of the kind of civilization we want to live within. I'm going to leave it at that.
I feel like I live in an entirely different reality than this blog, but I like to visit in other people’s realities just to see what’s going on there ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Had you heard of what happened to Mercola? If so, what do you think of what happened to him?
Occum’s razor-wise I’m guessing he probably committed some type of fraud, WHICH IS JUST A GUESS AND AN OPINION BASED PURELY ON LOGIC DON’T SUE ME. But I’ll be watching the news for further details.
He hasn't been convicted of fraud. Sounds like he hasn't been given a reason of the debanking. https://www.myfloridacfo.com/news/pressreleases/press-release-details/2023/08/01/cfo-jimmy-patronis-we-need-answers-on-why-a-florida-business-was-debanked
What circular reasoning: he was punished, and must be guilty because he was punished. Careful with that razor or you'll cut yourself.
At no point did I say he must be guilty. I just like to wait until I have like ANY actual information that doesn’t come from the aggrieved person, who obviously has an agenda. And I guess I’m just more skeptical than most, because OF COURSE he said he doesn’t know why. If you were committing fraud, would you just throw up your hands and be like “ya got me!”? Like with every news story, I’m going to wait for more information before shouting that it must be a conspiracy.
The only shouting I've seen in these comments is yours (all caps sentence). Nor have I seen any conspiracy theory accusations. I took it as yet another data point to add to many preceding ones of an evolving social mentality which condones and encourages various forms of punishment without any kind of due process and ultimately loss of freedom for us all. It is a kind of vigilantism which the people who allow don't seem to realize can and will be used against them eventually.
I think another important part of this story is that not only did they cancel the bank accounts his business associates but also of their wives and children. Also I would have thought that even IF someone had been convicted of fraud, their bank accounts wouldn't have been cancelled, but certainly not until the person was actually convicted.
Mercola makes the point here that Chase banked Jeffrey Epstein. https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/dr-mercola-speaks-out-about-his-debanking-by-jpmorgan-chase-this-could-happen-to-anyone/
Somebody mentioned Occam’s razor. I’d bet anyone who offends or perturbs the PR or legal departments of a bank’s most powerful customer(s) or who does or says something that threatens their bigger lines of business is subject to being the subject of a letter from such a concern's lawyer to the bank, along with some well-worded sanctimony and veiled threats. Banks, like every institution dealing with big money, err on the side of power. And pharmaceutical companies are pretty thin-skinned; I’d bet they don’t take kindly to even moderately effective public questioning. If I recall correctly, didn’t they try to stop 60 Minutes from reporting the truth about Phen-Fen killing people 20+ years ago (with a little help from the FDA)? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fda-doc-claims-fen-phen-cover-up/
So what’s to stop them from crushing some gadfly blogger?
And just to be clear, banks can’t just keep your money indefinitely because you publish something they don’t like.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/regcc/regcc.htm
Plus, this issue with banks seems to be pretty widespread: https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/on-your-side-bank-customers-report-unexpected-account-closures/
But let’s suppose this guy who says he was “debanked” was actually subject to this treatment because of his opinions. Well, this IS the USA and “goofy opinion holder” is not a protected class under civil rights law…but they can’t just keep his money. He’ll find a bank that will work with him eventually. Personally, I am against coercion of any kind and if a bank told me they didn’t want my business because I say X or think Y, I’d appreciate the clarity and would share the news. The key difference between us and China is that when China zeroes out your bank account and social credit, you have no alternatives and essentially no (real) rights.
Mercola has been a big name in alternative health for quite some time and was named as part of the "disinformation dozen"--https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/vaccine/ct-coronavirus-vaccine-mercola-disinformation-dozen-20210726-djdqcxeus5d5rb4ufqjmdbrgci-story.html.
I could see how this could snowball-- would any alternative health claims become subject to some kind of punishment? There's a new bill in Canada increasing enforcement over alternative health products--https://dicentra.com/blog/health-canada/bill-c-47-enacted-in-canada-granting-health-canada-increased-regulatory-enforcement-authority-over-natural-health-products. From my understanding there hasn't been a lot of enforcement in that area, so maybe it's needed, but I have also heard the high fines could break alternative health companies.
Also I would imagine that all the big banks would get in line as far as debanking a person (especially if the government is behind it), but perhaps a credit union could be found? I don't know.